Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
I'd say it is the largest indicator that we have in the industry. Nothing guarantees that someone will be good. But nothing is a better indicator. Home labs show passion and initiative. Nothing else really does.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
For somebody to go from no job, to a having 1 year 1st line, then 1 year 2nd Line, all documented on CV, shows that they learn.
Not in my experience. Doesn't show that at all. It shows that they can get hired once. Many jobs can't fire you in the first year. Back in NY, it is common to go from first line to second line work simply by getting hired initially and not quitting. That's all that it takes. Doesn't show any learning, desire, passion, quality, etc.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Their experience shows you that somehow manage to learn what they need to know and are able to progress. You should not assume its impossible for them without a lab.
No one assumed that it is impossible. It's not even the thing being looked for.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
Never said it did - but it shows interest and self motivation, which are critical things in IT.
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I'm sure that most of us have an experience where their job has zero desire and often zero ability to train anyone for their jobs. Most employers couldn't do this, even if they wanted to do so. It's out of their scope of ability. In the enterprise space where it is theoretically possible, there is an open market situation where those that need trained are heavily punished by the nature market forces. In the real world, I just don't see this stuff happening. And given that most people, both techs and employers, feel that people must know how to do a job before getting hired based on the average person being unable to effectively learn on the job, this effect is far more dramatic than it is with me who assumes that anyone qualified at all can learn on the job.
For example, I like to hire "programmers" not "Java programmers." If you are a programmer worth hiring, learning Java is a weekend activity for you. But most people will only hire a Java programmer for an assumed Java position, because they assume that they can't learn a new language.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
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@scottalanmiller is right. You can have a lab for Zero up front cost. Before I had a cheap 1U Supermicro server that I virtualized on I used old PCs that I obtained through doing support for people after they were done with them and I used them. They couldn't all host virtual machines but I could still install an OS on them and learn on them. Heck as long as the computer runs I keep it just so I have something to mess around on, I have two old Athlon X2 Dell PCs that are old but will run any Linux server fine. My laptop is an "Old" laptop that one of the attorneys I worked for wanted me to destroy. I destroyed the hard drive for them. (it was an old 5400RPM drive) threw an SSD in it, and 16GB of RAM and the thing absolutely screams now.
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@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
But why do they see it that way? What makes them perceive it as taking time away, rather than, for example, giving time to?
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Let's reverse it and look at things from the company's perspective - why pay to train someone during company time for a new job or role when there are loads of people out there, maybe external or elsewhere internally in larger companies, that already know the material...
If they know the material from being employed and doing the job, yep that's good. Like I said, learn on the job when its needed.
If they say they know the material from a home lab, that's not good or bad. Its not relevant. Somebody saying they have a home lab regarding a subject doens't actually mean they know about the subject. Having a year of experience having learned something at work, or for work when actually needed likely does mean they know the subject.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Let's reverse it and look at things from the company's perspective - why pay to train someone during company time for a new job or role when there are loads of people out there, maybe external or elsewhere internally in larger companies, that already know the material...
If they know the material from being employed and doing the job, yep that's good. Like I said, learn on the job when its needed.
I think that herein lies the conflict. For your career "it is needed" comes "before the job". You can't learn on the job when it is needed, because those two things don't really coexist.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
But why do they see it that way? What makes them perceive it as taking time away, rather than, for example, giving time to?
According to some people's perspectives, they see giving time to learning as taking away time for leisure.
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@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
That is either or, your example even shows it so. First family, then learning - you have to leave the family to do the learning.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
I'd say it is the largest indicator that we have in the industry. Nothing guarantees that someone will be good. But nothing is a better indicator. Home labs show passion and initiative. Nothing else really does.
Having the desire to get that foot in the door and that first IT job also shows passion and initiative.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
Never said it did - but it shows interest and self motivation, which are critical things in IT.
The fact they are after the job in IT shows that they have interest and self motivation. Otherwise they would be looking for a job in healthcare, or sports or whatever else.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
If they say they know the material from a home lab, that's not good or bad. Its not relevant.
Or it's the most relevant. I'll take someone with home lab experience on something over someone with work experience on the same thing.
That's also how I got hired to Wall St. and broke the six figures mark in my 20s. They didn't care where I had worked before (they cared that I had a good work history, of course) but what made them want me was the passion and the extensive end to end knowledge of stuff that I had from my home lab. I was brought in to oversee a huge department of people who were older with much more "work experience" on the technology than me - because my home lab showed that I really knew my stuff without the company providing me support to do it and that I knew it all, not just the pieces exposed at the job.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
That is either or, your example even shows it so. First family, then learning - you have to leave the family to do the learning.
@dashrender I haven't coded since the mid 90s and that was in Ada 95. My daughter who is 14 is learning how to code with me. We want to write some Android Apps. This is quality time with my daughter. So it can be both.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Let's reverse it and look at things from the company's perspective - why pay to train someone during company time for a new job or role when there are loads of people out there, maybe external or elsewhere internally in larger companies, that already know the material...
If they know the material from being employed and doing the job, yep that's good. Like I said, learn on the job when its needed.
I think that herein lies the conflict. For your career "it is needed" comes "before the job". You can't learn on the job when it is needed, because those two things don't really coexist.
The same as learning 20 things in case 1 comes up is a waste of time; go spend it directly with family.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
I'd say it is the largest indicator that we have in the industry. Nothing guarantees that someone will be good. But nothing is a better indicator. Home labs show passion and initiative. Nothing else really does.
Having the desire to get that foot in the door and that first IT job also shows passion and initiative.
Only if they used a home lab to get there in the first place. Otherwise it just shows "wanting to get paid." No different than applying at McDonald's. It shows the minimum level of passion that there is - a desire to be able to afford food and shelter, but nothing more.
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@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
I agree here. Spending time with family is a top priority, but so is investing in yourself. I tend to bounce around with my free time (time to myself). Sometimes I'm tinkering in my home lab and other times, I'm not.
I don't see one as taking away from the other. I know for certain that my investments in learning is what has given me so much family time.
Oh, I agree, but I tend to do my learning and such after spending time with my family. Some folks see it as an either/or.
But why do they see it that way? What makes them perceive it as taking time away, rather than, for example, giving time to?
According to some people's perspectives, they see giving time to learning as taking away time for leisure.
Right, but WHY?
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Education takes time away from anything else you're doing unless the family is learning the same thing as you at the same time. I'm not really sure how Scott gets more time with family because he spends time getting educated.
Because it allows me to work in more "Decision making" roles rather than "button pushing" roles. And it gives me more senior positions. So that I have the power to do things like dictate my schedule, my location, that I will work from home, that my family will come with me on business travel, and so forth.
See this makes my point - you robbed from Peter to pay Paul. You took the time now (or in the past) to learn things with the hopes that it would pay off in the future by allowing you positions that give you more flexibility. I'd argue that for the average person in that position this doesn't equate to more time with their family, because unlike you, they aren't home schooling their kids, so they can't just pack up the whole family to go on a business trip with you, like your family can, in this case, you're talking about the 1% of the 1% that you're in.
