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@travisdh1 said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
Does anyone realize that every energy conversion suffers loss? It's so ridiculously laughable to me every time people fire up the electric vs. gas vehicle debate. It generally requires fossil fuels to generate electricity (on a large scale), and then you get another potential drop when converting from AC to battery DC potential electricity. There is no magical "save the planet" clause that kicks in and gives you a conversion bonus for being "green", and when you're all done wasting energy to look like you've done the planet some great service, you throw your massive used-up lead-acid batteries in a landfill. Sure, technology keeps getting better, and there may come a point when we can produce all of our electricity w/o the use of fossil fuels, but until that actually happens in the real world, physics renders the argument invalid. I'll accept that using solar panels to generate the power to charge your car is a step in the right direction, but now you've added another layer of toxic batteries to the chain. And my 3 cars average about 350-400 miles per tank of gas, at roughly 25-30 mpg.
You went and got me started, here we go.
We should be 100% nuclear power generation right now. Most of the current reactors in the US are so old it's not even funny. Yet we keep operating the old, known to be dangerous, designs a la Fukushima. We have abundant fuel, safe reactors that can not melt down, and can recycle around 99% of the fuel. Yet we do NONE of this... excuse me, I need to go collect the duct tape because my head just exploded.
A Frick'n Men!!!
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@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Art has a huge point though - we still get the power for our electric cars from coal and oil burning power plants. There are fewer and fewer nuclear power plants today, so unless we already have that new method of power production, we are still burning the fossil fuels.
So to Art's point - are we better off burning the fuels in the cars to generate power to move our vehicles or are we better of burning the fuel, converting it to electricity (loss) - but might be equal loss to burning in car), then having to transport it - generally through some type of conversion (loss), then storage (again loss).
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-greenest-american-cities-renewable-energy-2016-8
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How about this: No car in the world can go to a local dragstrip, eat a Hellcat for lunch, and on the way home pick up the kids at soccer practice, some groceries, and the wife at the nail salon.
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@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Art has a huge point though - we still get the power for our electric cars from coal and oil burning power plants. There are fewer and fewer nuclear power plants today, so unless we already have that new method of power production, we are still burning the fossil fuels.
So to Art's point - are we better off burning the fuels in the cars to generate power to move our vehicles or are we better of burning the fuel, converting it to electricity (loss) - but might be equal loss to burning in car), then having to transport it - generally through some type of conversion (loss), then storage (again loss).
There's loss with gas powered too. Loss of unburnt fuel, drive train loss, idling.
Oh absolutely - so I'm kinda getting the best of all worlds right now with my hybrid. The engine is off at no/low speeds, comes on when needed to recharge the batteries, and assist in higher speeds.
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@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@thanksajdotcom said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Plus they are WAY quicker than a gas car!
OMG, a Tesla when the pedal gets pushed all the way down is like going over the big hill on a rollercoaster. Literally experienced that exact sensation riding in one in California in 2013 when I visited Pertino with @scottalanmiller and @Nick42
Nothing a gas powered car can't do, but not likely as efficiently as an electric.
Definitely not as efficient - or really even possible without a HUGE engine, etc, etc... power to mass ratio and all. Also electric has all of it's torque at zero RPM, pretty big difference.
Technically correct, but try going down a dragstrip in an 8 second alcohol-burning car. Your Tesla is no match for that power.
Really? Well a Tesla today might not be - but I would definitely bet that an all electric car can be made that would smash that thing. It boils down to battery capacity and speed at which it can dump that capacity to motors. If the electric motors can handle it, again, 100% torque at 0 RPM.
Both vehicles suffer more from tire traction at that point.
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@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@thanksajdotcom said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Plus they are WAY quicker than a gas car!
OMG, a Tesla when the pedal gets pushed all the way down is like going over the big hill on a rollercoaster. Literally experienced that exact sensation riding in one in California in 2013 when I visited Pertino with @scottalanmiller and @Nick42
Nothing a gas powered car can't do, but not likely as efficiently as an electric.
Definitely not as efficient - or really even possible without a HUGE engine, etc, etc... power to mass ratio and all. Also electric has all of it's torque at zero RPM, pretty big difference.
Technically correct, but try going down a dragstrip in an 8 second alcohol-burning car. Your Tesla is no match for that power.
Really? Well a Tesla today might not be - but I would definitely bet that an all electric car can be made that would smash that thing. It boils down to battery capacity and speed at which it can dump that capacity to motors. If the electric motors can handle it, again, 100% torque at 0 RPM.
Both vehicles suffer more from tire traction at that point.
I'll agree, except that an 8 second car is getting 1/4 mile down the strip in 8 seconds. They aren't exactly suffering from lack of traction. lol
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@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@thanksajdotcom said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Plus they are WAY quicker than a gas car!
OMG, a Tesla when the pedal gets pushed all the way down is like going over the big hill on a rollercoaster. Literally experienced that exact sensation riding in one in California in 2013 when I visited Pertino with @scottalanmiller and @Nick42
Nothing a gas powered car can't do, but not likely as efficiently as an electric.
Definitely not as efficient - or really even possible without a HUGE engine, etc, etc... power to mass ratio and all. Also electric has all of it's torque at zero RPM, pretty big difference.
Technically correct, but try going down a dragstrip in an 8 second alcohol-burning car. Your Tesla is no match for that power.
Really? Well a Tesla today might not be - but I would definitely bet that an all electric car can be made that would smash that thing. It boils down to battery capacity and speed at which it can dump that capacity to motors. If the electric motors can handle it, again, 100% torque at 0 RPM.
Both vehicles suffer more from tire traction at that point.
Hold that thought. Seen this the other day: http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-race-car-is-a-crazy-fast-modified-str-1791251540
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@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@thanksajdotcom said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Plus they are WAY quicker than a gas car!
OMG, a Tesla when the pedal gets pushed all the way down is like going over the big hill on a rollercoaster. Literally experienced that exact sensation riding in one in California in 2013 when I visited Pertino with @scottalanmiller and @Nick42
Nothing a gas powered car can't do, but not likely as efficiently as an electric.
Definitely not as efficient - or really even possible without a HUGE engine, etc, etc... power to mass ratio and all. Also electric has all of it's torque at zero RPM, pretty big difference.
Technically correct, but try going down a dragstrip in an 8 second alcohol-burning car. Your Tesla is no match for that power.
Really? Well a Tesla today might not be - but I would definitely bet that an all electric car can be made that would smash that thing. It boils down to battery capacity and speed at which it can dump that capacity to motors. If the electric motors can handle it, again, 100% torque at 0 RPM.
Both vehicles suffer more from tire traction at that point.
I'll agree, except that an 8 second car is getting 1/4 mile down the strip in 8 seconds. They aren't exactly suffering from lack of traction. lol
I think we've derailed here - I'm not sure what this has to do with electric cars? Are you saying that on one can make an electric car that can do 1/4 mile in 8 seconds? I don't think you are, but maybe I'm wrong.
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@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@thanksajdotcom said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Plus they are WAY quicker than a gas car!
OMG, a Tesla when the pedal gets pushed all the way down is like going over the big hill on a rollercoaster. Literally experienced that exact sensation riding in one in California in 2013 when I visited Pertino with @scottalanmiller and @Nick42
Nothing a gas powered car can't do, but not likely as efficiently as an electric.
Definitely not as efficient - or really even possible without a HUGE engine, etc, etc... power to mass ratio and all. Also electric has all of it's torque at zero RPM, pretty big difference.
Technically correct, but try going down a dragstrip in an 8 second alcohol-burning car. Your Tesla is no match for that power.
Really? Well a Tesla today might not be - but I would definitely bet that an all electric car can be made that would smash that thing. It boils down to battery capacity and speed at which it can dump that capacity to motors. If the electric motors can handle it, again, 100% torque at 0 RPM.
Both vehicles suffer more from tire traction at that point.
Hold that thought. Seen this the other day: http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-race-car-is-a-crazy-fast-modified-str-1791251540
Yeah, electrics at drag strips are actually unfair to the normal cars!
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@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@thanksajdotcom said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Plus they are WAY quicker than a gas car!
OMG, a Tesla when the pedal gets pushed all the way down is like going over the big hill on a rollercoaster. Literally experienced that exact sensation riding in one in California in 2013 when I visited Pertino with @scottalanmiller and @Nick42
Nothing a gas powered car can't do, but not likely as efficiently as an electric.
Definitely not as efficient - or really even possible without a HUGE engine, etc, etc... power to mass ratio and all. Also electric has all of it's torque at zero RPM, pretty big difference.
Technically correct, but try going down a dragstrip in an 8 second alcohol-burning car. Your Tesla is no match for that power.
Really? Well a Tesla today might not be - but I would definitely bet that an all electric car can be made that would smash that thing. It boils down to battery capacity and speed at which it can dump that capacity to motors. If the electric motors can handle it, again, 100% torque at 0 RPM.
Both vehicles suffer more from tire traction at that point.
Hold that thought. Seen this the other day: http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-race-car-is-a-crazy-fast-modified-str-1791251540
wow, there was 1100 lbs to remove from the curb weight? lol
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@travisdh1 said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@thanksajdotcom said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Plus they are WAY quicker than a gas car!
OMG, a Tesla when the pedal gets pushed all the way down is like going over the big hill on a rollercoaster. Literally experienced that exact sensation riding in one in California in 2013 when I visited Pertino with @scottalanmiller and @Nick42
Nothing a gas powered car can't do, but not likely as efficiently as an electric.
Definitely not as efficient - or really even possible without a HUGE engine, etc, etc... power to mass ratio and all. Also electric has all of it's torque at zero RPM, pretty big difference.
Technically correct, but try going down a dragstrip in an 8 second alcohol-burning car. Your Tesla is no match for that power.
Really? Well a Tesla today might not be - but I would definitely bet that an all electric car can be made that would smash that thing. It boils down to battery capacity and speed at which it can dump that capacity to motors. If the electric motors can handle it, again, 100% torque at 0 RPM.
Both vehicles suffer more from tire traction at that point.
Hold that thought. Seen this the other day: http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-race-car-is-a-crazy-fast-modified-str-1791251540
Yeah, electrics at drag strips are actually unfair to the normal cars!
I suppose for a torque show we just look at trains - diesel electric trains. Those motors are damn huge, and not meant to go fast but the torque is off the hook. I'm sure they could be modified to go fast more than torque and smoke current dragsters.
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@travisdh1 said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
First you have to prove to me that humans are the cause of climate change,
There are words I never thought I'd read here
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@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@travisdh1 said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@thanksajdotcom said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Plus they are WAY quicker than a gas car!
OMG, a Tesla when the pedal gets pushed all the way down is like going over the big hill on a rollercoaster. Literally experienced that exact sensation riding in one in California in 2013 when I visited Pertino with @scottalanmiller and @Nick42
Nothing a gas powered car can't do, but not likely as efficiently as an electric.
Definitely not as efficient - or really even possible without a HUGE engine, etc, etc... power to mass ratio and all. Also electric has all of it's torque at zero RPM, pretty big difference.
Technically correct, but try going down a dragstrip in an 8 second alcohol-burning car. Your Tesla is no match for that power.
Really? Well a Tesla today might not be - but I would definitely bet that an all electric car can be made that would smash that thing. It boils down to battery capacity and speed at which it can dump that capacity to motors. If the electric motors can handle it, again, 100% torque at 0 RPM.
Both vehicles suffer more from tire traction at that point.
Hold that thought. Seen this the other day: http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-race-car-is-a-crazy-fast-modified-str-1791251540
Yeah, electrics at drag strips are actually unfair to the normal cars!
I suppose for a torque show we just look at trains - diesel electric trains. Those motors are damn huge, and not meant to go fast but the torque is off the hook. I'm sure they could be modified to go fast more than torque and smoke current dragsters.
I've seen that Ford's new diesel pickups with be north of 1000 ft pounds with just a PCM flash.
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@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@travisdh1 said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@thanksajdotcom said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Plus they are WAY quicker than a gas car!
OMG, a Tesla when the pedal gets pushed all the way down is like going over the big hill on a rollercoaster. Literally experienced that exact sensation riding in one in California in 2013 when I visited Pertino with @scottalanmiller and @Nick42
Nothing a gas powered car can't do, but not likely as efficiently as an electric.
Definitely not as efficient - or really even possible without a HUGE engine, etc, etc... power to mass ratio and all. Also electric has all of it's torque at zero RPM, pretty big difference.
Technically correct, but try going down a dragstrip in an 8 second alcohol-burning car. Your Tesla is no match for that power.
Really? Well a Tesla today might not be - but I would definitely bet that an all electric car can be made that would smash that thing. It boils down to battery capacity and speed at which it can dump that capacity to motors. If the electric motors can handle it, again, 100% torque at 0 RPM.
Both vehicles suffer more from tire traction at that point.
Hold that thought. Seen this the other day: http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-race-car-is-a-crazy-fast-modified-str-1791251540
Yeah, electrics at drag strips are actually unfair to the normal cars!
I suppose for a torque show we just look at trains - diesel electric trains. Those motors are damn huge, and not meant to go fast but the torque is off the hook. I'm sure they could be modified to go fast more than torque and smoke current dragsters.
I've seen that Ford's new diesel pickups with be north of 1000 ft pounds with just a PCM flash.
at 1 mpg
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@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@travisdh1 said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@thanksajdotcom said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Plus they are WAY quicker than a gas car!
OMG, a Tesla when the pedal gets pushed all the way down is like going over the big hill on a rollercoaster. Literally experienced that exact sensation riding in one in California in 2013 when I visited Pertino with @scottalanmiller and @Nick42
Nothing a gas powered car can't do, but not likely as efficiently as an electric.
Definitely not as efficient - or really even possible without a HUGE engine, etc, etc... power to mass ratio and all. Also electric has all of it's torque at zero RPM, pretty big difference.
Technically correct, but try going down a dragstrip in an 8 second alcohol-burning car. Your Tesla is no match for that power.
Really? Well a Tesla today might not be - but I would definitely bet that an all electric car can be made that would smash that thing. It boils down to battery capacity and speed at which it can dump that capacity to motors. If the electric motors can handle it, again, 100% torque at 0 RPM.
Both vehicles suffer more from tire traction at that point.
Hold that thought. Seen this the other day: http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-race-car-is-a-crazy-fast-modified-str-1791251540
Yeah, electrics at drag strips are actually unfair to the normal cars!
I suppose for a torque show we just look at trains - diesel electric trains. Those motors are damn huge, and not meant to go fast but the torque is off the hook. I'm sure they could be modified to go fast more than torque and smoke current dragsters.
I've seen that Ford's new diesel pickups with be north of 1000 ft pounds with just a PCM flash.
at 1 mpg
Rollin' coal!!! LOL
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Let's put a pic of that for effect.
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I think I was behind that thing on the way to work this morning!
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@Grey said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@Dashrender said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@MattSpeller said in Random Thread - Anything Goes:
@art_of_shred I think the point is completely lost in there. Electric vehicles are the future and they will be much better for the environment. While today's technology may not be perfect that is how we humans progress - one step at a time. It sounds like you are arguing that we shouldn't bother and just continue our destructive ways. That is not progressing anything.
Art has a huge point though - we still get the power for our electric cars from coal and oil burning power plants. There are fewer and fewer nuclear power plants today, so unless we already have that new method of power production, we are still burning the fossil fuels.
So to Art's point - are we better off burning the fuels in the cars to generate power to move our vehicles or are we better of burning the fuel, converting it to electricity (loss) - but might be equal loss to burning in car), then having to transport it - generally through some type of conversion (loss), then storage (again loss).
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-greenest-american-cities-renewable-energy-2016-8
Have they overcome the problem where a panel didn't used to product as much power over it's lifetime as it took to create it in the first place?
These are definitely lofty goals - let's see if even one of them makes it, let alone all of them.
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The desire to lower the use of electricity seems far fetched unless the technology to use less while providing the same or better solutions seems unlikely at best.
Oh you know all of those new IOT things at Best Buy - they are now illegal in all of those cities to help ensure our demand for power stays the same or goes down. lol
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Interesting - I was once (or more than once) told that SF electric buses caused more pollution at the power plant than the old diesel buses did running downtown. If true, at least the pollution wouldn't be right were the people where.
But while looking to back this up, I found this article that states that SF uses a hydro-electric damn, so it seems extremely unlikely that power generation for the buses would be worse than the old buses.
