What is the best degree for IT?
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@Dashrender said:
Once you have around 10 years of experience, you're now being compared to the guy who is 4 years older than you with the same level of experience (10 years) and they look at you compared to him.. everything is the same except he has a degree. Now what?
I've never seen a serious job that cared about a degree except in lieu of experience.
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@Jason said:
@Dashrender said:
I completely agree that it proves nothing, but disagree that it's a SMB way of thinking.
Most HR departments put this requirement on their job postings. The HR filters the incoming resumes by those requirements before sending them onto a hiring manager.Now maybe you have a better system, and you get ALL the resumes directly, but if a company has a real legit HR department, that's unlikely. I say this from my own experience, which is small and limited, so it's biased by my own experience.
That's not true. Only in small companies does HR get involved (in the way of) the hiring process. HR's job is not to select the candidate it's to help the Hiring manager with what they are looking for. Sure they scan for potential legal issues but they don't add degrees. I've seen that in SMBs but, we are a fortune 500 and do not run that way. HR only helps the hiring manager get what they want, the hiring manager has the ultimate say.
@jason is completely correct. Good companies would never allow HR to be a part of that process. Why would HR be allowed to actively sabotage the company? That's not how great or healthy companies behave or could behave.
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@Draco8573 said:
...but I heard of a beowulf cluster and it sounds fun to try.
Wow, the 1990s coming back again? Have not heard of one of those in forever!
in 2006 I ran a 10,000 host cluster on Wall St. Didn't use Beowulf but a commercial product. Same type of thing, though.
While this kind of stuff is fun, I would put in on the back burner and focus on building IT career skills that are practical and likely to get you work. HPC clusters are neat, but not something that people actually get hired to do.
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@Draco8573 said:
but the reason i am in college was because I was going to go for mechanical engineering but that didn't work out.
I started in engineering too. Manufacturing Systems (basically Industrial Eng but with a specific focus on big manufacturing) for me, not mechanical. I dropped out after two years, best decision ever. I have had such a wildly better career than my classmates, most of whom went on to Masters and PhD degrees. Their careers are much shorter than mine with much lower earnings and flexibility.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Draco8573 said:
...but I heard of a beowulf cluster and it sounds fun to try.
Wow, the 1990s coming back again? Have not heard of one of those in forever!
Never heard it called beowulf before.. I guess college is teaching the old terms haha.
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@scottalanmiller I hate school, who doesn't. But from what I have seen from my parents and cousins going through it is a necessary evil because they can't find jobs that easily because they don't have that degree. I want to do it so that I have it, because the majority of job listings in my area what a college degree and some years of experience.
It is unlikely that I am going to be able to move to a place where you don't need a degree because I don't have the money but I have done my research. So I know that I need a degree to compete with other applicants around here. But I also know that I need experience which is why I am working while in school.
I am just trying to find out what is the right path for me to take in school so that it will be beneficial to me and so I know that I will be able to handle the classes because school is not based on what you know how to do or that you can figure it out, school is about standardized testing and making sure that you are capable of passing a test.
so yes there is some emotion in this decision but I am also trying to be smart about it which is why I have been thinking about this for a couple weeks and have not done anything yet because I want to be very thorough before I reach a conclusion -
@scottalanmiller said:
@Draco8573 said:
but the reason i am in college was because I was going to go for mechanical engineering but that didn't work out.
I started in engineering too. Manufacturing Systems (basically Industrial Eng but with a specific focus on big manufacturing) for me, not mechanical. I dropped out after two years, best decision ever. I have had such a wildly better career than my classmates, most of whom went on to Masters and PhD degrees. Their careers are much shorter than mine with much lower earnings and flexibility.
I was an electrical engineering student for a while. Still love it but, heck I get paid a lot more than an EE would.
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@Draco8573 said:
@scottalanmiller I hate school, who doesn't.
Actually I really enjoy it. I like writing papers and academic discussions. I like teaching too and sitting on college boards and overseeing programs. I really enjoy academia, I just know that it isn't helping students try to build their careers in IT.
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@Jason said:
Never heard it called beowulf before.. I guess college is teaching the old terms haha.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_cluster
It's still used I think, but the concept doesn't have the legs that it did fifteen years ago.
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@Draco8573 said:
@scottalanmillerBut from what I have seen from my parents and cousins going through it is a necessary evil because they can't find jobs that easily because they don't have that degree.
How do you know that that is why? Are they highly skilled IT professionals but unable to find work? Are they flexible and willing to move anywhere for jobs like IT pros need to do to keep their careers moving? What makes you feel that their lack of degrees has an impact on their careers and if their careers are not IT, why would their experience matter for you?
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@Draco8573 said:
I want to do it so that I have it, because the majority of job listings in my area what a college degree and some years of experience.
Sure, the job listings have it. No self respecting IT pro would ever actually require it and no good company would even think of actually having such a barrier. It's listed because it's just something that people say. But those of us without degrees know that that is just something that it said and doesn't actually prevent a barrier to good jobs.
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@Draco8573 said:
It is unlikely that I am going to be able to move to a place where you don't need a degree because I don't have the money but I have done my research.
IT requires that you move. It's just part of the job. Degree or not, if you can't move constantly, your career will become mired. Moving job to job and location to location comes with the territory. Staying in one location is theoretically possible, mostly in NYC or London, but you will almost certainly pay an enormous price for it.
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@scottalanmiller there is a very long answer for that but it is not that they can't find work but they are stuck where they are because they manage to go anywhere else because they don't have that piece of paper. And the system admin that I work alongside even went back to school to get his degree.
but it has been said that you need a degree to get past HR in a lot of cases -
@Draco8573 said:
So I know that I need a degree to compete with other applicants around here.
You keep saying things with certainty that have no logical foundation leading you to them. Are you saying that if you had skills and experience that they would get the jobs over you if they only had a degree? Two questions...
- Is that true?
- If it is true, why would you want to work with incompetent people for incompetent people?
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@Draco8573 said:
@scottalanmiller there is a very long answer for that but it is not that they can't find work but they are stuck where they are because they manage to go anywhere else because they don't have that piece of paper. And the system admin that I work alongside even went back to school to get his degree.
but it has been said that you need a degree to get past HR in a lot of casesThen why doesn't this affect everyone else? You keep saying that without paper they can't move on. That is not true. It just isn't. Most successful IT pros I know, and I know thousands, don't have degrees. The top ones almost never have degrees. I never hear IT people without degrees complaining that they can't find work, only people with degrees saying that - and then saying that they have to have degrees for the obviously incorrect reasons that you are stating.
This community, and Spiceworks, and the professional world are full of people without degrees on average outperforming their degreed counterparts. That's just math. Even the colleges admit that (they don't say it, they release the numbers and try to hide the results, but it is there.)
Degrees don't get you jobs. Some crappy job, sure. It happens. Degrees are often better for finding "a" job, if your goal is to never be out of work, degrees help. If your goal is to have a long, successful career, degrees will hurt.
Why the people you know can't find work... we can't say. What we can say, without a doubt, is that their lack of degrees can only be, at most, a minor factor.
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@Draco8573 said:
And the system admin that I work alongside even went back to school to get his degree.
Lots of people GET degrees. So many that nearly everyone has them. That people have them tells us nothing simply due to the math of the situation.
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@Draco8573 said:
but it has been said that you need a degree to get past HR in a lot of cases
Yup, it's been said and shown to be untrue time and time again. If you really, really want to work in SMB only, well, typically there is no HR. And the enterprise does not allow HR to do this. There are a few horror stories out there of horrible companies full of poorly performing, sad employees who are hidden behind crual HR hiring walls. It is true, it happens. But it is rare and for one, I'm thankful that my lack of disclosing my degrees keeps those companies from even talking to me. I want a better career than that.
I feel like you are emotionally driven to get a degree at any cost and are coming up with unsubstantiated reasons why it must be the case.
I'm not saying a degree is definitely wrong for you, just that the amount of evidence that says it is bad for you is pretty overwhelming and the reasons you are providing for why it is a requirement are not very solid.
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@Draco8573 said:
because school is not based on what you know how to do or that you can figure it out, school is about standardized testing and making sure that you are capable of passing a test.
Not good schools. Top IT schools are nothing like that. No tests at all. You are talking about the kinds of schools that are the bases of why we warn that having a degree tells us nothing. There are excellent IT schools out there too that are nothing like that.
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Electronics engineering was fun for me but you have to find your passion and chase it
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@Draco8573 said:
I am just trying to find out what is the right path for me to take in school so that it will be beneficial to me
Here is the breakdown, as there is a spectrum:
If you want the best option for the best possible IT career, school is out of the question. It will cripple your career options and is already holding you back.
If you want the absolute best flexibility and protection against being homeless and destitute then you want a liberal degree not in IT, but a general degree that makes it "easier" to get "a job", any job.
So you have to decide what you want. Are you serious about IT? Do you want the most IT options possible? College is in your way, it is a barrier, as are all of the people pushing you to do it without knowing its value.
Are you just really concerned about being able to live locally and keep working and are willing to sacrifice your IT career to do it? Then getting a degree that isn't IT likely is a good option, although I'd wager even then skipping the degree is probably best. I know no one getting enough benefit from a degree to offset its cost, it happens somewhere, but it is super rare.
