Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course
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@scottalanmiller said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@nerdydad said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@worden2 said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
I think Python is showing a lot of strength as a intro language as well, and it may come from a scripting background so to speak, but seems full featured enough to be easy to introduce (Scratch is based on it) and used in more sophisticated settings.
If you're in a Unix environment, absolutely. However, if it is a Windows environment, then I would suggest PowerShell.
No no. Python is equally applicable in both. PowerShell has no place whatsoever in any CS or programming or software engineering courseware. Shells are not for CS use, they are special, crippled languages for the sole purpose of managing and maintaining an operating system. PS is a horrible language with all of the negatives of Java and none of the positives.
I never touched powershell in regards to anything SE oriented. Only on the IT side of my experience.
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@quixoticjeremy said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@worden2 said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@nerdydad
I concur. Powershell is insanely important to any Windows experience. I was speaking to the idea of a SINGLE language for an intro CS course. I suggested it since Python is platform independent to a large degree and IMHO superior to JavaScript for filling that role. Personally, I agree that we should just get back to C. C is the core language for so many things, and even if you extend IT down into the Internet of Things and microcontrollers etc. it is still extremely relevant.There are plenty of reasons why javascript shouldn't be used here. Python I wouldn't see as bad, nor java.
Java over JS for sure. Python is uniquely really perfect for this. Anything running on the JRE or .NET runtimes, or anything compiled are unnecessarily cumbersome. Perl is a hot mess. Ruby is far too unique. JS has no REPL and running on Node is insane for new users. Tcl is out of use. Python really stands alone in this field.
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@coliver said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@quixoticjeremy said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@worden2 said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@nerdydad
I concur. Powershell is insanely important to any Windows experience. I was speaking to the idea of a SINGLE language for an intro CS course. I suggested it since Python is platform independent to a large degree and IMHO superior to JavaScript for filling that role. Personally, I agree that we should just get back to C. C is the core language for so many things, and even if you extend IT down into the Internet of Things and microcontrollers etc. it is still extremely relevant.Ironically my intro course was C++. Luckily I had been coding in C++ for a decade at that point so I ended up teaching it but man did that make people suffer lol.
My intro was Java. I did a advanced level CS C++ course in grad school... I barely passed that class.
My intro in college was Fortran 77, then C. I taught both.
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@nerdydad said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
I did Java and hated it. I passed with a B in all of the classes, but, did I hate it.
I would stick with an interpreted language as it teaches exactly what you are trying to teach, how computer understands programs. Therefore, I would go Python.
I love Java, great language and architecture. Just not appropriate to someone trying to learn the basics.
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I know that this is more of sunk costs, but when I was in college, I went for IT. I have never yet used Java in any part of my career. Would have much rather had a language that I could have used to automate systems with instead of SE tasks (no offense to those in SE, just not what I went for).
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Python needs to die in nuclear fire along with Fax machines and most politicians.
It might be a nice language but because it is whitespace delimited for code blocks it can go to hell.
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@mlnews said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
In a bit of a surprise move in the educational space, computer science bulwark Stanford University has chosen to remove Java and replace it with JavaScript in their Intro to Computer Science class. Java has been the language of this somewhat famous class since 2002, a run of fifteen years. They say that Java is showing its age, although to be fair JavaScript is nearly as old. Java itself is 22 years old this year. Since being purchased by Oracle, interest in Java has slowly fallen from its lofty peak during stewardship under Sun.
Anybody who's starting with anything except assembly language is WRONG!!! If somebody doesn't know how CPU works he can't make a decent software engineer: he'll use bloatware, write things in interpreted languages and bring file systems to kernel from user-land.
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@kooler said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@mlnews said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
In a bit of a surprise move in the educational space, computer science bulwark Stanford University has chosen to remove Java and replace it with JavaScript in their Intro to Computer Science class. Java has been the language of this somewhat famous class since 2002, a run of fifteen years. They say that Java is showing its age, although to be fair JavaScript is nearly as old. Java itself is 22 years old this year. Since being purchased by Oracle, interest in Java has slowly fallen from its lofty peak during stewardship under Sun.
Anybody who's starting with anything except assembly language is WRONG!!! If somebody doesn't know how CPU works he can't make a decent software engineer: he'll use bloatware, write things in interpreted languages and bring file systems to kernel from user-land.
WOW. Tell us how you really feel. Please. Don't hold back.
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@kooler said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@mlnews said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
In a bit of a surprise move in the educational space, computer science bulwark Stanford University has chosen to remove Java and replace it with JavaScript in their Intro to Computer Science class. Java has been the language of this somewhat famous class since 2002, a run of fifteen years. They say that Java is showing its age, although to be fair JavaScript is nearly as old. Java itself is 22 years old this year. Since being purchased by Oracle, interest in Java has slowly fallen from its lofty peak during stewardship under Sun.
Anybody who's starting with anything except assembly language is WRONG!!! If somebody doesn't know how CPU works he can't make a decent software engineer: he'll use bloatware, write things in interpreted languages and bring file systems to kernel from user-land.
Assembly was my 2nd programming course. My Intro to Programming was.. well, I forget.... that's how important it was.
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@nerdydad said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
I know that this is more of sunk costs, but when I was in college, I went for IT. I have never yet used Java in any part of my career. Would have much rather had a language that I could have used to automate systems with instead of SE tasks (no offense to those in SE, just not what I went for).
Java has no place in IT, totally nonsensical there. But for CS, it's a great language. But not for teaching basic programming, it's for down the road.
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@jaredbusch said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
Python needs to die in nuclear fire along with Fax machines and most politicians.
It might be a nice language but because it is whitespace delimited for code blocks it can go to hell.
You've crystalized my number one problem with Python as "whitespace delimited", but I don't agree with the "holocaust hell" aspect.
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@kooler said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@mlnews said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
In a bit of a surprise move in the educational space, computer science bulwark Stanford University has chosen to remove Java and replace it with JavaScript in their Intro to Computer Science class. Java has been the language of this somewhat famous class since 2002, a run of fifteen years. They say that Java is showing its age, although to be fair JavaScript is nearly as old. Java itself is 22 years old this year. Since being purchased by Oracle, interest in Java has slowly fallen from its lofty peak during stewardship under Sun.
Anybody who's starting with anything except assembly language is WRONG!!! If somebody doesn't know how CPU works he can't make a decent software engineer: he'll use bloatware, write things in interpreted languages and bring file systems to kernel from user-land.
As a matter of purity or getting down to basics when introducing concepts, I agree. But, when you're talking about trying to introduce CS concepts to people new to the field assembly is a nightmare. I had some simple assembly as part of intro CS when in college, but it almost soured me completely on programming. Of course, what really killed my nascent interest in programming (in college) was having to learn Cobol...
Perhaps it's safe to say that the closer you get to the kernel the more you need assembly? -
@worden2 said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@jaredbusch said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
Python needs to die in nuclear fire along with Fax machines and most politicians.
It might be a nice language but because it is whitespace delimited for code blocks it can go to hell.
You've crystalized my number one problem with Python as "whitespace delimited", but I don't agree with the "holocaust hell" aspect.
Other than not copying the standard C format, what's the actual negative to whitespace delimiting? It's there for a reason and, I feel, especially important in an educational setting. I actually see this as a positive.
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@worden2 said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@kooler said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@mlnews said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
In a bit of a surprise move in the educational space, computer science bulwark Stanford University has chosen to remove Java and replace it with JavaScript in their Intro to Computer Science class. Java has been the language of this somewhat famous class since 2002, a run of fifteen years. They say that Java is showing its age, although to be fair JavaScript is nearly as old. Java itself is 22 years old this year. Since being purchased by Oracle, interest in Java has slowly fallen from its lofty peak during stewardship under Sun.
Anybody who's starting with anything except assembly language is WRONG!!! If somebody doesn't know how CPU works he can't make a decent software engineer: he'll use bloatware, write things in interpreted languages and bring file systems to kernel from user-land.
As a matter of purity or getting down to basics when introducing concepts, I agree. But, when you're talking about trying to introduce CS concepts to people new to the field assembly is a nightmare. I had some simple assembly as part of intro CS when in college, but it almost soured me completely on programming. Of course, what really killed my nascent interest in programming (in college) was having to learn Cobol...
Perhaps it's safe to say that the closer you get to the kernel the more you need assembly?@Kooler is a kernel programmer so....
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I had a crash course with Pascal for a first week in Univ, then I didn't see any programming until 2nd semester. Then we moved to C, C++ and Assembler.
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@scottalanmiller said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@worden2 said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@jaredbusch said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
Python needs to die in nuclear fire along with Fax machines and most politicians.
It might be a nice language but because it is whitespace delimited for code blocks it can go to hell.
You've crystalized my number one problem with Python as "whitespace delimited", but I don't agree with the "holocaust hell" aspect.
Other than not copying the standard C format, what's the actual negative to whitespace delimiting? It's there for a reason and, I feel, especially important in an educational setting. I actually see this as a positive.
I don't care about the standard C format. I jsut hate space delimiting. I want my stuff in brackets or something. I don't want to be required to use a 3 lines for an if that I can write on a single line.
non space delimited languages can be used by the advanced or the learner.
The learner should be taught by the teacher to hit enter and tab everything.
But the advanced user should not be required to do so.
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@jaredbusch said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@scottalanmiller said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@worden2 said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@jaredbusch said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
Python needs to die in nuclear fire along with Fax machines and most politicians.
It might be a nice language but because it is whitespace delimited for code blocks it can go to hell.
You've crystalized my number one problem with Python as "whitespace delimited", but I don't agree with the "holocaust hell" aspect.
Other than not copying the standard C format, what's the actual negative to whitespace delimiting? It's there for a reason and, I feel, especially important in an educational setting. I actually see this as a positive.
I don't care about the standard C format. I jsut hate space delimiting. I want my stuff in brackets or something. I don't want to be required to use a 3 lines for an if that I can write on a single line.
non space delimited languages can be used by the advanced or the learner.
The learner should be taught by the teacher to hit enter and tab everything.
But the advanced user should not be required to do so.
As someone who has worked a job dealing exclusively with "learner's code", trust me, it has a value in the educational setting.
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For the record you can write a simple if in one line since Python 2.5.
x = 4 if b > 8 else 9 -
@romo said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
For the record you can write a simple if in one line since Python 2.5.
x = 4 if b > 8 else 9ternary
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/394809/does-python-have-a-ternary-conditional-operator
it is frowned upon in python by some though apparently. I'm not a huge python user though so just looked at this for the fun of it.
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@worden2 said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@kooler said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
@mlnews said in Stanford Removes Java in Favor of JavaScript in Intro to Computer Science Course:
In a bit of a surprise move in the educational space, computer science bulwark Stanford University has chosen to remove Java and replace it with JavaScript in their Intro to Computer Science class. Java has been the language of this somewhat famous class since 2002, a run of fifteen years. They say that Java is showing its age, although to be fair JavaScript is nearly as old. Java itself is 22 years old this year. Since being purchased by Oracle, interest in Java has slowly fallen from its lofty peak during stewardship under Sun.
Anybody who's starting with anything except assembly language is WRONG!!! If somebody doesn't know how CPU works he can't make a decent software engineer: he'll use bloatware, write things in interpreted languages and bring file systems to kernel from user-land.
As a matter of purity or getting down to basics when introducing concepts, I agree. But, when you're talking about trying to introduce CS concepts to people new to the field assembly is a nightmare. I had some simple assembly as part of intro CS when in college, but it almost soured me completely on programming. Of course, what really killed my nascent interest in programming (in college) was having to learn Cobol...
Perhaps it's safe to say that the closer you get to the kernel the more you need assembly?Nope, modern kernel is developed in C and some C++ mostly.
Its really about basics: if you don't know how hardware works and how expensive f.e. thread content switch is you'll write something looking very cool and simple and it actually crinkles and mangles on a real hardware.
