Who do you call for IT assistance
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@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
- That EVERY IT department shouldn't be tasked with having complete scope. Of COURSE they should. Imagine if we said the same thing about doctors or lawyers!!!
Unfortunately we live in the real world.
No SMB will have enough people (or money) to cover everything in the IT world, from basic desktop support, server hardware/software, security, firewalls, pentesting, cloud, azure, etc etc etc.So we need to reach out for help when needed. Yes I would say I have a broed knowledge in a wide range (part thanks to this forum) but some stuff I know we would need some external help with.
And in the real world, no company lacks these resources, they only choose not to use them. There is zero excuse for a company that can't have IT cover these bases, Remember, no company that isn't large enough to cover all the bases should ever even entertain the idea of internal IT, it should always be external. Going for internal (and refusing hybrid on top of that) is an intentional avoidance of lower costs and total coverage. In the real world, no SMB can justify the cost of internal IT... that decision is always made emotionally at the expense of the business. In the real world it's just not feasible that an internal-only team could be affordably big enough to have the necessary resources. It would either be unaffordably out of reach, or just absurdly costly for no reason.
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
OK I see where you're going here - you're assuming anyone selling a product is incapable providing support for that product - that seems insane!
Sure the entity making the product can't and shouldn't be expected to know the in's and out's of the purchaser's network, but I think it reasonable for the vendor to be able to assist on the product specifically, and perhaps be part of the team that solves the issue.Right, asking for product fixes is not having them do IT. Having them do anything meaningful can't be done. Even if they have the capabilities, they are in the enemy camp and cannot be trusted. ANd the real world bears this out every time. The advise and guidance from vendors universally puts companies at massive risk.
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@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
So we need to reach out for help when needed. Yes I would say I have a broed knowledge in a wide range (part thanks to this forum) but some stuff I know we would need some external help with.
I believe Scott’s argument to that would be:
Of course not, not in house. They would hire it out through an MSP. This allows for the sharing of the MSP’s resources across multiple companies while getting all the advantages.Scott’s said this before.
But he also said what i referenced that we Should. I several times if we need to reach out we have failed in IT.
Reaching out TO VENDORS. Reaching out to your IT team is what is expected.
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@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
That said I don’t agree with is “must know everything or you’ve failed” approach
But why? What's the excuse for being an advisory department and not meeting due diligance capability? What value does IT add if we are uninformed and unable to provide the necessary oversight to the business? Why do we ever allow this when there is never a time when it is out of reach?
THis is like saying that the management team doesn't need to have the full capabilities necessary to run the business. Sure they might know people management, but we'll excuse them from knowing how to pay their taxes and not bringing in the resources to do so. We'd never excuse a doctor, lawyer, or CEO from this. Why would IT be different? How is IT expected to work if we allow this?
I guess perhaps I'm not expressing my thoughts deeply though - We've already agreed that a single doctor can't know all the doctor things - and that they are allowed to reach out to other doctors - that's all I'm saying for IT. It's impossible for an IT person, or even a team to know ALL the IT in the world to only rely on that team for every possible answer there could be - so ..... we allow the IT team to reach out to other IT personal to get assistance. And while you may disagree that the likes of Dell/VMWare, etc are IT, I include them in my IT team for support, especially when I pay those companies for just that offering.
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
I would agree that a doc that knows nothing about cancer isn't going to call a pharma company.. but the cancer doc who does know about cancer probably should call the pharma company when using their med won't work as expected.
Beyond this, I think the approach is often different from this point.The pharma might need to be alerted. But if the medicine isn't working, calling sales people who have a strong interest financially in doing real harm are absolutely not to be called by any honest doctor to get guidance or advice.
Giving big pharma a chance to threaten, cover up, or kill off a risky patient instead of trying to cure them is absolutely reckless and unethical.
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@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
- That EVERY IT department shouldn't be tasked with having complete scope. Of COURSE they should. Imagine if we said the same thing about doctors or lawyers!!!
Unfortunately we live in the real world.
No SMB will have enough people (or money) to cover everything in the IT world, from basic desktop support, server hardware/software, security, firewalls, pentesting, cloud, azure, etc etc etc.So we need to reach out for help when needed. Yes I would say I have a broed knowledge in a wide range (part thanks to this forum) but some stuff I know we would need some external help with.
I believe Scott’s argument to that would be:
Of course not, not in house. They would hire it out through an MSP. This allows for the sharing of the MSP’s resources across multiple companies while getting all the advantages.Scott’s said this before.
Exactly, there is always a way.
And I have yet to work with an MSP that they themselves haven't had to occasionally reach outside of their own borders to get a solution to a problem.
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
That said I don’t agree with is “must know everything or you’ve failed” approach
But why? What's the excuse for being an advisory department and not meeting due diligance capability? What value does IT add if we are uninformed and unable to provide the necessary oversight to the business? Why do we ever allow this when there is never a time when it is out of reach?
THis is like saying that the management team doesn't need to have the full capabilities necessary to run the business. Sure they might know people management, but we'll excuse them from knowing how to pay their taxes and not bringing in the resources to do so. We'd never excuse a doctor, lawyer, or CEO from this. Why would IT be different? How is IT expected to work if we allow this?
I guess perhaps I'm not expressing my thoughts deeply though - We've already agreed that a single doctor can't know all the doctor things - and that they are allowed to reach out to other doctors - that's all I'm saying for IT. It's impossible for an IT person, or even a team to know ALL the IT in the world to only rely on that team for every possible answer there could be - so ..... we allow the IT team to reach out to other IT personal to get assistance. And while you may disagree that the likes of Dell/VMWare, etc are IT, I include them in my IT team for support, especially when I pay those companies for just that offering.
I thin kthe problem is you are thinking of doctors and IT as individuals, not departments or teams. The doctors is reaching out ot his medical TEAM. IT reaches out to the rest of the TEAM. Neither should ever reach out to the "enemy" vendor to do their job for them.
I 100% disagree with using the people we are tasked with defending against to be the defenders. Literally hiring the inmates to guard the jail (and run the judicial system.) They are NOT IT, no ifs, ands or buts. Their status as vendor precludes their possibility from acting as IT, you can't do both without compromising one or the other, and it isn't IT that pays the bills and since IT knows this, there's no ethical requirement for them to act as IT no matter what they say. All ethical onus of what they do to harm your business is on you because you know that they are a vendor and will never act in your interest (which is a requirement of being IT.)
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
- That EVERY IT department shouldn't be tasked with having complete scope. Of COURSE they should. Imagine if we said the same thing about doctors or lawyers!!!
Unfortunately we live in the real world.
No SMB will have enough people (or money) to cover everything in the IT world, from basic desktop support, server hardware/software, security, firewalls, pentesting, cloud, azure, etc etc etc.So we need to reach out for help when needed. Yes I would say I have a broed knowledge in a wide range (part thanks to this forum) but some stuff I know we would need some external help with.
I believe Scott’s argument to that would be:
Of course not, not in house. They would hire it out through an MSP. This allows for the sharing of the MSP’s resources across multiple companies while getting all the advantages.Scott’s said this before.
Exactly, there is always a way.
And I have yet to work with an MSP that they themselves haven't had to occasionally reach outside of their own borders to get a solution to a problem.
Yes you have. Unless you don't mean IT borders. No real MSP is going to vendors, that's something VARs do regularly, because they rarely have skills in house, there is no need as they aren't IT.
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@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
OK I see where you're going here - you're assuming anyone selling a product is incapable providing support for that product - that seems insane!
Sure the entity making the product can't and shouldn't be expected to know the in's and out's of the purchaser's network, but I think it reasonable for the vendor to be able to assist on the product specifically, and perhaps be part of the team that solves the issue.Right, asking for product fixes is not having them do IT. Having them do anything meaningful can't be done. Even if they have the capabilities, they are in the enemy camp and cannot be trusted. ANd the real world bears this out every time. The advise and guidance from vendors universally puts companies at massive risk.
you don't consider product fixes meaningful? That's the only reason you call them! perhaps not a "fix" exactly - but figuring out why you can't get their product to dance as you expect.... that's part of their job too, at least in my mind...
Yeah it comes down to most of us here include their help in this way - providing fixes to their software/their solutions - IS part of the IT solution. -
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
- That EVERY IT department shouldn't be tasked with having complete scope. Of COURSE they should. Imagine if we said the same thing about doctors or lawyers!!!
Unfortunately we live in the real world.
No SMB will have enough people (or money) to cover everything in the IT world, from basic desktop support, server hardware/software, security, firewalls, pentesting, cloud, azure, etc etc etc.So we need to reach out for help when needed. Yes I would say I have a broed knowledge in a wide range (part thanks to this forum) but some stuff I know we would need some external help with.
I believe Scott’s argument to that would be:
Of course not, not in house. They would hire it out through an MSP. This allows for the sharing of the MSP’s resources across multiple companies while getting all the advantages.Scott’s said this before.
Exactly, there is always a way.
And I have yet to work with an MSP that they themselves haven't had to occasionally reach outside of their own borders to get a solution to a problem.
Until working in the SPiceworks community, I'd never even encountered a business that considered something like this. This isn't as universal a failing as you think that it is.
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
OK I see where you're going here - you're assuming anyone selling a product is incapable providing support for that product - that seems insane!
Sure the entity making the product can't and shouldn't be expected to know the in's and out's of the purchaser's network, but I think it reasonable for the vendor to be able to assist on the product specifically, and perhaps be part of the team that solves the issue.Right, asking for product fixes is not having them do IT. Having them do anything meaningful can't be done. Even if they have the capabilities, they are in the enemy camp and cannot be trusted. ANd the real world bears this out every time. The advise and guidance from vendors universally puts companies at massive risk.
you don't consider product fixes meaningful? That's the only reason you call them! perhaps not a "fix" exactly - but figuring out why you can't get their product to dance as you expect.... that's part of their job too, at least in my mind...
Yeah it comes down to most of us here include their help in this way - providing fixes to their software/their solutions - IS part of the IT solution.What does meaningful have to do with it? And no, 99% of calls to vendors are not for product fixes, but for someone to do the job of IT.
Software fixes is a wholly unrelated discussion about product engineering of the vendor's product, that's in no way related to this discussion about IT.
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@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
- That EVERY IT department shouldn't be tasked with having complete scope. Of COURSE they should. Imagine if we said the same thing about doctors or lawyers!!!
Unfortunately we live in the real world.
No SMB will have enough people (or money) to cover everything in the IT world, from basic desktop support, server hardware/software, security, firewalls, pentesting, cloud, azure, etc etc etc.So we need to reach out for help when needed. Yes I would say I have a broed knowledge in a wide range (part thanks to this forum) but some stuff I know we would need some external help with.
I believe Scott’s argument to that would be:
Of course not, not in house. They would hire it out through an MSP. This allows for the sharing of the MSP’s resources across multiple companies while getting all the advantages.Scott’s said this before.
Exactly, there is always a way.
And I have yet to work with an MSP that they themselves haven't had to occasionally reach outside of their own borders to get a solution to a problem.
Yes you have. Unless you don't mean IT borders. No real MSP is going to vendors, that's something VARs do regularly, because they rarely have skills in house, there is no need as they aren't IT.
Well then, I've never worked with a real MSP then (and that's not meant to be a slight against you or NTG or JB as I haven't engaged either of you as a MSP).
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
Yeah it comes down to most of us here include their help in this way - providing fixes to their software/their solutions - IS part of the IT solution.
No, that's part of software or hardware engineering. Again, Ford fixing a blown gasket is not the same as the driver needing directions. IT operates the equipment, the vendor builds it. IT does not write the software that we run or build the servers. You are mixing completely different endeavors and concepts here. This is similar to saying that IT needs to eat, food is mission critical, therefore McDonald's is our IT advisors.
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
- That EVERY IT department shouldn't be tasked with having complete scope. Of COURSE they should. Imagine if we said the same thing about doctors or lawyers!!!
Unfortunately we live in the real world.
No SMB will have enough people (or money) to cover everything in the IT world, from basic desktop support, server hardware/software, security, firewalls, pentesting, cloud, azure, etc etc etc.So we need to reach out for help when needed. Yes I would say I have a broed knowledge in a wide range (part thanks to this forum) but some stuff I know we would need some external help with.
I believe Scott’s argument to that would be:
Of course not, not in house. They would hire it out through an MSP. This allows for the sharing of the MSP’s resources across multiple companies while getting all the advantages.Scott’s said this before.
Exactly, there is always a way.
And I have yet to work with an MSP that they themselves haven't had to occasionally reach outside of their own borders to get a solution to a problem.
Yes you have. Unless you don't mean IT borders. No real MSP is going to vendors, that's something VARs do regularly, because they rarely have skills in house, there is no need as they aren't IT.
Well then, I've never worked with a real MSP then (and that's not meant to be a slight against you or NTG or JB as I haven't engaged either of you as a MSP).
Few have, I keep telling you 99% of the field is VARs faking it because businesses rarely audit their IT and just want to have their jobs done for them. So being a VAR and lying about IT is a sure fire way to make money because almost every customer is happy as long as they can plausibly deny knowing that what they did was wrong.
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
- That EVERY IT department shouldn't be tasked with having complete scope. Of COURSE they should. Imagine if we said the same thing about doctors or lawyers!!!
Unfortunately we live in the real world.
No SMB will have enough people (or money) to cover everything in the IT world, from basic desktop support, server hardware/software, security, firewalls, pentesting, cloud, azure, etc etc etc.So we need to reach out for help when needed. Yes I would say I have a broed knowledge in a wide range (part thanks to this forum) but some stuff I know we would need some external help with.
I believe Scott’s argument to that would be:
Of course not, not in house. They would hire it out through an MSP. This allows for the sharing of the MSP’s resources across multiple companies while getting all the advantages.Scott’s said this before.
Exactly, there is always a way.
And I have yet to work with an MSP that they themselves haven't had to occasionally reach outside of their own borders to get a solution to a problem.
Yes you have. Unless you don't mean IT borders. No real MSP is going to vendors, that's something VARs do regularly, because they rarely have skills in house, there is no need as they aren't IT.
Well then, I've never worked with a real MSP then (and that's not meant to be a slight against you or NTG or JB as I haven't engaged either of you as a MSP).
THe thing is, chances are, you've never worked with an MSP at all.
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Just one thing
If your saying you can't trust a vender to provide valid support for their products, why buy it? -
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
Just one thing
If your saying you can't trust a vender to provide valid support for their products, why buy it?No one said that they won't support their products. They can't do IT. Supporting their products is not IT, that's two very different things.
Compare to cars. If you operate a taxi or limo fleet, or a rental car fleet, you call on Honda to repair a faulty transmission. You never call on Honda to advice you on how to hire, drive, fuel, finance, or manage the cars, drivers, or customers.
The vendor is like Honday, and fixing the car is an engineering task, not a business management one. IT is like business management.
If you start thinking that building (or fixing) servers or software is part of IT, then it gets really confusing. Those companies and their employees have little or no idea that people think that they do something in IT... because to them they are engineers and manufacturers, not IT in any sense. IT is part of the internal management / business operations of a company, not a product that can be sold or repairs.
Again, calling a vendor for what the vendor does is absolutely okay (but shouldn't be common or you have a product problem.) But asking a vendor to do IT work is a huge problem that it is our task to protect against as IT.
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@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
Just one thing
If your saying you can't trust a vender to provide valid support for their products, why buy it?No one said that they won't support their products. They can't do IT. Supporting their products is not IT, that's two very different things.
Compare to cars. If you operate a taxi or limo fleet, or a rental car fleet, you call on Honda to repair a faulty transmission. You never call on Honda to advice you on how to hire, drive, fuel, finance, or manage the cars, drivers, or customers.
The vendor is like Honday, and fixing the car is an engineering task, not a business management one. IT is like business management.
If you start thinking that building (or fixing) servers or software is part of IT, then it gets really confusing. Those companies and their employees have little or no idea that people think that they do something in IT... because to them they are engineers and manufacturers, not IT in any sense. IT is part of the internal management / business operations of a company, not a product that can be sold or repairs.
Again, calling a vendor for what the vendor does is absolutely okay (but shouldn't be common or you have a product problem.) But asking a vendor to do IT work is a huge problem that it is our task to protect against as IT.
Yeah i see now miss understood
Realize now your saying don't ask Dell how are CRM system works lol -
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
Just one thing
If your saying you can't trust a vender to provide valid support for their products, why buy it?No one said that they won't support their products. They can't do IT. Supporting their products is not IT, that's two very different things.
Compare to cars. If you operate a taxi or limo fleet, or a rental car fleet, you call on Honda to repair a faulty transmission. You never call on Honda to advice you on how to hire, drive, fuel, finance, or manage the cars, drivers, or customers.
The vendor is like Honday, and fixing the car is an engineering task, not a business management one. IT is like business management.
If you start thinking that building (or fixing) servers or software is part of IT, then it gets really confusing. Those companies and their employees have little or no idea that people think that they do something in IT... because to them they are engineers and manufacturers, not IT in any sense. IT is part of the internal management / business operations of a company, not a product that can be sold or repairs.
Again, calling a vendor for what the vendor does is absolutely okay (but shouldn't be common or you have a product problem.) But asking a vendor to do IT work is a huge problem that it is our task to protect against as IT.
Yeah i see now miss understood
Realize now your saying don't ask Dell how are CRM system works lolExactly. Or worse, don't ask them if you need to buy more stuff and who to buy it from. Of course it will be "yes" and "Dell". No need to ask to get those answers!
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@scottalanmiller As someone who has had to deal with vendor supplied hardware and software for a medical practice, I have come to firmly believe vendors are the enemy, a $very $very $expensive enemy.
