Motivating Workers
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@scottalanmiller said:
As someone who took a pretty massive paycut in order to have a better life and took a whopping paycut compared to what I was being offered.... I can tell you that money above a certain amount really does not motivate a lot of people. You need a certain level, but beyond that it just isn't worth very much.
A lot of people, sure. But not all people, and definitely not "most" people based on evidence. Most people want the freedom of not having to throw 40-80 hours at someone else's benefit in exchange for "the basics" and some compliments and would be exponentially happier spending the rest of their lives seeing the world and experiencing everything there is to experience, a caliber of happiness that money, exclusively, can buy.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Yes, no one is saying that it isn't motivating until you can afford the basics.
They pretty much are saying that, which is the point. $50,000, in all but the toughest neighborhoods ( like NYC ), can get you "the basics" provided you manage your money appropriately. It feels to me like some people here are arguing that "people will work harder for a little praise and artistic liberty at work than they will for an A5", which until someone proves me wrong, flies in the face of research, common sense, and the attitudes and opinions of most people I've talked to, in my industry at least. People work hard for money, which lets them do things they otherwise couldn't, and enjoy a level of security and comfort they otherwise couldn't. Whether their boss, coworkers, and peers tell them they're great at what they do and how wonderful their work is makes a lot of difference, and is great sure, but it's not as great as being able to have a beautiful 59 story home overlooking the beach and a helicopter in your backyard to take you to a far-off breakfast, or even better, to be able to retire at 40 ( a lot of programmers ) and have literally decades of extra free time to pursue your actual life passions.
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I'd be motivated a lot more by a 4 day work week than more money. Unless it's substantially more money.
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@creayt said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Yes, no one is saying that it isn't motivating until you can afford the basics.
They pretty much are saying that, which is the point. $50,000, in all but the toughest neighborhoods ( like NYC ), can get you "the basics"
Where do you need $50,000 to get the basics? Median income here is $37,000
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@thecreativeone91 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income
6 United States 43,585*
7 Canada 41,280
8 South Korea 40,861
9 Kuwait 40,854
10 Netherlands 38,584
11 New Zealand 35,562 -
@MattSpeller said:
@thecreativeone91 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income
6 United States 43,585*
7 Canada 41,280
8 South Korea 40,861
9 Kuwait 40,854
10 Netherlands 38,584
11 New Zealand 35,562I was referring to my area not the whole country. But still most people make well below $50,000. And that is also household income, not individual income so it could be significantly less for each person.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@creayt said:
@Nic said:
Joel Spolsky has a good article series on this topic:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/08/10.htmlJoel makes abysmal software so I'll read it with a bucketful of salt but am excited to see if he found any actual evidence.
I have to agree with @creayt here. Joel writes well and has some good insights, I have all of his books and find them valuable. But what he turned out at Microsoft is the worst of what MS has produced (VBA!!) and Fog Creek's products are definitely a joke. We tried one once based on his reputation and we were completely shocked and what garbage it was. No support for any enterprise OS, didn't install or work. The only thing we were happy about was how easy it was to get our money back. Customer service was excellent. Nice people, terrible software. Their use of VBScript has made them a laughingstock in development circles. I would never put it on my resume, it could easily be a career ending place to work.
Yeah I've heard mixed things about FogBugz, but Trello and Stack Exchange seem to be taking off. Either way, kudos to him if he can keep a good business running and attract and keep good talent. Tom Limoncelli just went to work for them.
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@thecreativeone91 Indeed, speaking for myself as a SINK
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@thecreativeone91 said:
@creayt said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Yes, no one is saying that it isn't motivating until you can afford the basics.
They pretty much are saying that, which is the point. $50,000, in all but the toughest neighborhoods ( like NYC ), can get you "the basics"
Where do you need $50,000 to get the basics? Median income here is $37,000
Depends on what you call the basics. Most places it takes $50K or more to be able to have any comfort around owning a house, car, etc. And I think there is motivation until one spouse can stay home and you can vacation.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
@MattSpeller said:
@thecreativeone91 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income
6 United States 43,585*
7 Canada 41,280
8 South Korea 40,861
9 Kuwait 40,854
10 Netherlands 38,584
11 New Zealand 35,562I was referring to my area not the whole country. But still most people make well below $50,000. And that is also household income, not individual income so it could be significantly less for each person.
And "most" people are not knowledge workers, in a position to be inspired or making enough to be comfortable.
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@scottalanmiller said:
O'Reilly has been pushing a book that they have on why you can't motivate workers.
Link?
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@Nic said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@creayt said:
@Nic said:
Joel Spolsky has a good article series on this topic:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/08/10.htmlJoel makes abysmal software so I'll read it with a bucketful of salt but am excited to see if he found any actual evidence.
I have to agree with @creayt here. Joel writes well and has some good insights, I have all of his books and find them valuable. But what he turned out at Microsoft is the worst of what MS has produced (VBA!!) and Fog Creek's products are definitely a joke. We tried one once based on his reputation and we were completely shocked and what garbage it was. No support for any enterprise OS, didn't install or work. The only thing we were happy about was how easy it was to get our money back. Customer service was excellent. Nice people, terrible software. Their use of VBScript has made them a laughingstock in development circles. I would never put it on my resume, it could easily be a career ending place to work.
Yeah I've heard mixed things about FogBugz, but Trello and Stack Exchange seem to be taking off. Either way, kudos to him if he can keep a good business running and attract and keep good talent. Tom Limoncelli just went to work for them.
Who said that he can attract good talent? He's got VBScripters working for him. I'd not want to hire the people he is hiring. As far as I know, he has to hire college students because the cream of the crop won't give him a second thought. If you read his writing on hiring (funnily, I'm halfway through an article that references this exact thing) he specifically avoids hiring the best and looks for middling people.
Sadly, this makes Tom Limoncelli look bad, not Joel look good. FogBugz is a black mark on a resume. A sign of desperation, not of excelling.
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Joel hires people like he is a Fortune 100.... and they, basically by definition, can't hire the best because of their scale. Most companies can't hire the best, there aren't that many of the best out there, but he has some strong processes for getting the solidly upper mediocre.
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@MattSpeller said:
I'd be motivated a lot more by a 4 day work week than more money. Unless it's substantially more money.
That's the same thing as money ( my opinion ). It's more money for less time. And I agree with you.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
Where do you need $50,000 to get the basics? Median income here is $37,000
Scott made it sound like $75k was just enough for "the basics", I was using 50 to demonstrate that 75 doesn't mean "the basics", it means "spending money". I agree with you but didn't want to get into a debate about how much "the basics" would be, so I went higher. In a lot of cities though, even terrible places to live require pretty shocking rent prices, so I don't think 37k could get you much above poverty in a place like New York City for example. It all depends.
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The money stuff all depends on where you live and the cost of living.
Generally salary is what is called a "sanitary factor". Not enough will make you quit, but more won't make up for a shitty work environment.
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@Nic My cousin and one of my sisters in Bosnia live on about 500 euros a month pretty well. Compared to how much I had to spend living in Manhattan...
tl;dr I agree.
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@tonyshowoff said:
@Nic My cousin and one of my sisters in Bosnia live on about 500 euros a month pretty well. Compared to how much I had to spend living in Manhattan...
Even here in Spain, which is a moderately wealthy country, one Euro will get you a glass of great wine and a bit to eat! And that is with the taxes included!!
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@Nic said:
The money stuff all depends on where you live and the cost of living.
Very true. I'd bet there are places where 50k is comfy as hell, but it would not be enough to buy a 800sqft condo here unless you've been saving for years or have extremely good discipline (and cheap hobbies!).
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@MattSpeller said:
Very true. I'd bet there are places where 50k is comfy as hell, but it would not be enough to buy a 800sqft condo here unless you've been saving for years or have extremely good discipline (and cheap hobbies!).
Here in Spain you could buy a home and live decent. In Texas you could buy a small home and live very frugally. In Upstate NY you can do okay, too.
There are definitely places where it is comfy. And definitely places where it is starvation.
