How do you bill for time spent Researching and Project Management?
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@Dashrender said:
Pure research for something the client wants, That I understand billing them for completely. But often a client is expecting you to have knowledge of what they want you to do when it comes to a specific task, Installing a SAN for example.
That's just a bad expectation. Don't give in to it. Don't allow them to set unreasonable expectations. Clients will do all kinds of crazy things at your expensive if they let you.
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@Dashrender said:
The apprentice system is what we really seem to be missing these days.
We are missing that, it is true, but that doesn't solve this kind of problem.
IT is a "research nearly every situation" job. Research is part of doing IT. There is no "learn up front then do" like in many fields. And no "annual refresher." IT isn't like that.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
The apprentice system is what we really seem to be missing these days.
We are missing that, it is true, but that doesn't solve this kind of problem.
IT is a "research nearly every situation" job. Research is part of doing IT. There is no "learn up front then do" like in many fields. And no "annual refresher." IT isn't like that.
I have to keep remembering the difference between 'bench work' and 'IT work'. That said, I still can't imagine hiring a consultant at $250+/hr to learn how to build a SAN - I fully expect them to already know. Could they run into problems, SURE! will I have to pay for the troubleshooting of that problem, again sure/yes and I'm completely OK with that. But when I'm paying that kind of scratch I don't expect the person to be sending hours and hours learning how to do the setup.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
The apprentice system is what we really seem to be missing these days.
We are missing that, it is true, but that doesn't solve this kind of problem.
IT is a "research nearly every situation" job. Research is part of doing IT. There is no "learn up front then do" like in many fields. And no "annual refresher." IT isn't like that.
I have to keep remembering the difference between 'bench work' and 'IT work'. That said, I still can't imagine hiring a consultant at $250+/hr to learn how to build a SAN - I fully expect them to already know. Could they run into problems, SURE! will I have to pay for the troubleshooting of that problem, again sure/yes and I'm completely OK with that. But when I'm paying that kind of scratch I don't expect the person to be sending hours and hours learning how to do the setup.
Why not? If they put the "upfront" time into research and developing a plan chances are they won't have as much troubleshooting and problems for you to deal with... in addition they will probably be able to more quickly assist you in the future with that SAN (or really anything) in the even that something goes poorly.
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@Dashrender said:
I have to keep remembering the difference between 'bench work' and 'IT work'. That said, I still can't imagine hiring a consultant at $250+/hr to learn how to build a SAN - I fully expect them to already know.
Really? Do you feel that since you are paid right now to do "IT" that any and every task that comes up at work is your responsibility to already know and there is nothing that you should already know - including unique situations that no one but you has ever or might ever encounter? If so, why? And even moreso, how?
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@Dashrender said:
But when I'm paying that kind of scratch I don't expect the person to be sending hours and hours learning how to do the setup.
Define "that kind of scratch?" Problem is, people always define that as "whatever they are paying." Best Buy says "for $12/hour, I expect these people to know everything that there is about desktops!!" But we all know that even seven figure people don't "know everything about desktops" and have to not only research specific situations but also have to continuously research new patches, products, techniques, threats, versions, etc.
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@Dashrender said:
But when I'm paying that kind of scratch I don't expect the person to be sending hours and hours learning how to do the setup.
how do you expect them to know how to do it then? Where does the knowledge for your scenario come from?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I have to keep remembering the difference between 'bench work' and 'IT work'. That said, I still can't imagine hiring a consultant at $250+/hr to learn how to build a SAN - I fully expect them to already know.
Really? Do you feel that since you are paid right now to do "IT" that any and every task that comes up at work is your responsibility to already know and there is nothing that you should already know - including unique situations that no one but you has ever or might ever encounter? If so, why? And even moreso, how?
No, because I'm a full time employee. But when you hire a consultant, you're hiring knowledge and probably experience. The unique situations are the exception (I really dislike using that word in this situation because I feel that you're going to come along and tell me that every job is unique, there for an exception).
When I'm talking about learning I'm talking about someone who does not understand the basics of how to setup a Cisco Switch being sent as a consultant to setup said switch. Not a situation where someone has been hired to install a switch and wasn't told there are three VLANs they have to connect to once they arrive.
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@Dashrender said:
No, because I'm a full time employee. But when you hire a consultant, you're hiring knowledge and probably experience.
Why that assumption? When I hire a full time employee, why don't they have knowledge and experience? I pay SO much more, overall, for a full time employee, shouldn't I expect tons more from them?
When you hire a consultant, yes you presumably are doing it to get some special knowledge, experience or capacity. But I feel that you are reading way, way into that something that does not exist.
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@Dashrender said:
The unique situations are the exception (I really dislike using that word in this situation because I feel that you're going to come along and tell me that every job is unique, there for an exception).
Ah, here is the BIG problem. EVERY situation is unique. There are no exceptions, effectively. It is a very very rare and super limited consultant who can do nothing but push buttons and know what will happen. This isn't a consultant to change the oil filter on a 1992 Buick, that's effectively always the same. This is IT, there is no "repeatable case." If you get anywhere close to that, you are dealing only with the entry level consultants who don't need to think on their feet. If you don't need research, you should be questioning why you have a consultant.
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@Dashrender said:
When I'm talking about learning I'm talking about someone who does not understand the basics of how to setup a Cisco Switch being sent as a consultant to setup said switch.
But they have to research YOUR setup and any special cases. You can pick any case out of the air and make it sound like a consultant "should know that". But likewise, take any real world case and I'll show you where unique things can happen. A Cisco switch is a very common task and there are Cisco consultancies everywhere that do just that one thing. Getting someone who knows the commands is pretty easy. Getting someone who knows the commands, for your exact setup, for the exact model(s) that you have, for the exact firmware that you are running, etc. even for a big Cisco shop starts to get less than likely. Because not only does the shop have to have that experience, but you expect every person in that shop to have that experience.
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You have to remember that consultants are IT Pros just like everyone else. Every limitation to learning new things that you would run into as a full timer, they have to run into as a consultant.
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and i'm doing research FOR this company. the dialog was essentially "we're not IT, dont claim to be, dont want to be. We need to fill these voids in our business, can you help us, etc..."
So I've been talking to D and will more than likely just say we will spend x hours researching software, transferring knowledge to client, make recommendation etc and then once a course is picked, provide another proposal for the labor.
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That makes sense.
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@hubtechagain said:
So I've been talking to D and will more than likely just say we will spend x hours researching software, transferring knowledge to client, make recommendation etc and then once a course is picked, provide another proposal for the labor.
Pretty much how we handle it.
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One other area that consultants cannot be expected to know are some of the horrid pieces of software that are out there. This company I'm doing work for now has an ERP system called Visual Estitrack. It is written in FoxPro which has been discontinued, yet the company is still coming out with versions based on FoxPro 9. The application must be mapped on the V drive, even if you browse to the dbf files through another mapped letter, it won't work. They had an issue with some employees clocking in on time but were late. Apparently if you change the time on Windows, it will change the time in the software and they can just clock in whenever they feel like it. DBF files are unencrypted so anyone who has ever heard of them could open the folder and change data. It's a mess. Luckily they are moving to Epicor, but it's going slowly.
Anyway, back on track, I don't think anyone could be expected to know what they would be getting into, and that's just one piece of software from one company.
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hmm.... I'm not being clear in the separation. Many of these things that are being talked about are of course learn as you - the client's network, the clients unique software, the client hiring you to do research on things you clearly have no expertise in, yet they don't want to do it themselves so they are paying you, etc. Of course you're (and I would) charge them for all of these things.
I'm back to the IT versus bench work - If I hire a company to install a SAN, I expect to pay them a modest amount so they can learn my network, but outside of that, I don't expect to pay them to learn how the SAN works (assuming they are a certified provider for that SAN, and even if not certified, but it's something of their core business). I expect them to come onsite and KNOW what they need to do to make the SAN work. Can there be issues, and do I expect to pay for the time to resolve those issues - yes.
This is also the difference between hiring a consultant to consult and the company who will do the install. The consultant will have to spend time learning my setup and the best option for me. After that it's probably in my best interest to hire someone who is an expert at the chosen solution to implement it. This separation ensure I'm not buying more than I really need, something Scott is a huge fan of.
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@Dashrender said:
I'm back to the IT versus bench work - If I hire a company to install a SAN, I expect to pay them a modest amount so they can learn my network, but outside of that, I don't expect to pay them to learn how the SAN works (assuming they are a certified provider for that SAN, and even if not certified, but it's something of their core business). I expect them to come onsite and KNOW what they need to do to make the SAN work. Can there be issues, and do I expect to pay for the time to resolve those issues - yes.
This has nothing to do with bench work (unless we are talking about the racking portion of the work.) But that you are looking at basic setup tasks that are mostly general case. But even in those cases, things change between installs (different hardware configurations, new firmware updates, new way to set it up, etc.) But you seem to be focused on very entry level tasks that should not generally require special expertise at all. Installing a SAN can often be done with no training at all.
Being a consultant on a specific SAN, yes, you hope that there is actually some experience and expertise on that SAN. No one is saying anything that suggests that the consultants don't already have a lot of knowledge or experience. But no matter how much I know a SAN, I don't know everything about your servers, cabling, setup, firmware that just released, etc.
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It's really boiling down to you only hire consultants to do research or provide options/opinions for you that are in your best interest.
Then you act upon those opinions with your own decision... that could be hiring experts... but those experts aren't learning the tech.. they are learning your setup.
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@Dashrender said:
It's really boiling down to you only hire consultants to do research or provide options/opinions for you that are in your best interest.
Then you act upon those opinions with your own decision... that could be hiring experts... but those experts aren't learning the tech.. they are learning your setup.
No, that's not what we are saying. We are saying that every situation is unique, every one. Assuming that it is possible to hire someone with all of the requisite knowledge and experience isn't a good idea - it can't reasonably ever happen. Consultant ALL of them are the same as internal IT, they have to learn how the technology interacts in the specific instance. Learning is a necessary part of IT, always.
